Gay in Mormonland

In honor of Gay Pride month, Celia has agreed to share her story. As a lesbian member of the LDS church, she has walked a long path to live her authentic life. She hopes others will hear her story and understand they can do the same.

#lgbtq #mormonstories #exmormon #gaypride

Transcript

This is Jayenna Wild and Cat Hawk, and together we're, we're seeking the middle path.

Welcome to The Middle Path. Hey, everyone. As, well, if you're watching, as you can see, we have a guest here today. Yay! This is our friend, Celia. And she's here to help us talk about growing up gay. In the Mormon Church. Yeah, so it's officially June right now. And it's Gay Pride Month. Got your shirt? I have my shirt.

I was excited. I have a new sticker on my truck. So, we wanted, like I said, we wanted to talk about growing up gay. And, um, Kat and I don't have personal experience with that. So, ta da! So we asked our friend if she would join us. And we're grateful that you came on to talk with us. And honestly, even though I've known you for several years, I don't think I really know your, like, your story.

Like, I've just heard bits and pieces of it, so I'm kind of excited. I feel like that's a very common thing, especially, um, with people I know now. I, I know now, and when we moved around the country, They knew me then and the experience and I really do not talk about my past, even with my very close friends, even with my best friend, when we went to Ireland, they asked, someone in the car asked a question like, Oh, how'd you end up in Idaho?

And she answered for me. Cause I kind of took like a really big breath. Like what part of the story do I want you to tell us? Like, so that very pause and she inserted. And I was like, That's super wrong. Oh, you're my best friend and you don't know my whole history type of thing, so, uh, it's just, I don't, I don't talk about it.

So, like I said, I don't know all, like the, the fluid from start to finish story and obviously when we get all of that in One session. We can try. Let's

just go ahead and start, rewind all the way back to maybe, when did you realize you were gay? Well, um, consciously or subconsciously is the question. Yeah, well I'd say consciously and then maybe you can talk about the signs that were, should have been obvious to you. Yeah, I should have known a lot earlier, so I guess it's super embarrassing to say like, I didn't really know until college.

Okay. But then looking back, all the signs were there, it's just that I didn't have eyes to see it, I didn't have anyone around me that was really seeing me. Okay. Sometimes when I go back, uh, to Pennsylvania, where I grew up, and meet with my high school friends and whatnot, well, anytime I go back home, I always try to see them.

Um, and some of them, you know, we come out to each other type of thing, and we kind of laugh about how we didn't know, but it's like, we should have known. It's hard to recognize because there's so many things tied to it. It's not just... You know, this is my sexuality, but it colors every aspect of the life I had built for myself and who I wanted to be and who I was told to be.

Um, but it's a little bit more difficult and complicated to accept within yourself than to present that way. Um, it's just tremendously difficult. So, you didn't know, no, you were gay growing up, so what were the, like, things you were taught about being gay? Like, when I decided I was leaving the church, I knew, I know I had this whole, um, like, story about what it meant to leave the church and what those people were like.

And so did you have that same kind of story for, like, what it meant to be gay and what those people were like? Yeah, I mean... I, I, I had a gay aunt on each side of my family, my mom's side and my dad's side, and um, you know, so every once in a while, it's not like we talk about them all the time at Family Functions, but occasionally, you know, it came up and it wasn't always super positive.

And even if it was positive, they still had like the undertones of, of, you know, a difficult lifestyle. That, um, wasn't accepted, and how my grandmother's reaction when my aunt would bring, you know, yet another girl, it seemed like it was family functions, and it was kind of like a rotating door, and they never could really find, like, the love of their lives and have that, like, Storybook, um, love that's super happy.

There's never a happy ending. The pretend happy ending. We all thought because straight people are all so happy. But at least there's a pathway to a possibility. Yeah. And there was just never... There was never a clear path for them to happiness. In, in the same way, when you leave the church, there's no happiness.

There's no path. That's what they tell you, the story. And so that's what was kind of communicated, verbally, non verbally, in how they would tell the story of, of my aunts and everything. Yeah. I can't pinpoint when it was said to me, but I remember having that kind of a belief too. And that those around me, like, said that kind of a thing.

It's just so sad. They just are so lost. They just are, you know, like you said, have this rotating door of partners and more. They're going down a dark path. I, I was never, well, not that I know of or was aware of. I never was around anyone that was gay when I was a kid. I just remember, um, hearing how Dirty they were or disgusting or wrong or following Satan's path, like really awful things.

And it wasn't until I left Idaho to Florida and I actually started meeting a lot of like, it's just so, yeah. And, and I remember just feeling at first kind of nervous and hesitant to even like talk to them. I know that sounds really horrible, but then. Realizing how normal they are, and human they are, and I just, I just remember being really angry with what I grew up with, the hate, what now I know is hate.

And, um, I wonder, like, if you ever experienced that at all? Did you ever feel, like, nervous to come out and talk? Or... Well, there's a lot of assumptions that are made about people, and, um, one of them that still kind of persists today is that you're gay because of abuse or bad experiences with men. Um, and so then you switch teams in hopes of a better situation or just because of trauma.

And so, because of that assumption, it just kind of like, so, just like a, being a sexual deviant. Mm hmm. Yeah. Um, or. Or abuse that, and so it just, it creates this just really unhealthy sexual, um, attitudes. And I mean, I, I heard that a lot growing up and whatnot. So there's, there's so many fears. I, um, I, I know with the older generation, especially like boomers and our parents, um, I haven't heard about lesbians, but I've heard that gay men are basically all pedophiles.

Like for some reason they lump pedophile and gay in the same category and it's a completely separate different preference. It's the bible's fault. It's the bible's fault because a lot of the warnings or anything that's interpreted as anti homosexual are actually anti pedophile. Yeah, you know, if a man shouldn't, uh, lay with a young man.

Uh, it's the bible is talking about pedophilia and how wrong it is and because there's nothing in the bible about homosexuality and they changed it over time like those type of situations so like it's not necessarily like an individual's It's systematic and it's widespread in Christianity, it's a lack of education too, and bad interpretations.

Well, I mean, let's face it, most high demand Christian religions don't have any sex education, so they don't even know about being straight.

And growing up, like, growing up Mormon, you have to suppress any sexuality, um, that you have. And so I didn't necessarily feel picked on or in any way because of being gay. And I just kind of thought of it all the same as, you shut it down. They still teach that though. They still teach we can love gay people and they can be active members.

They just cannot act on their desires. You can see them just don't be gay. Just don't be gay. And you can only suppress that for so long. I was pretty successful in my life. I think some people do suppress it for like ever. There's a lot of ways to be successful in life and be fulfilled, and I think that, like, gay people who have to shut it down, put all of their eggs in those other baskets, and they present really successful.

Like, a lot of people have them into career, fitness. their children, like even like their friends and developing like networks of this really passionate Project that they have and they wind up like, you know creating these wonderful societies and businesses and stuff And so like there's pros and cons to everything.

Yeah, but you were saying like how it actually presents us It's kind of strange and, and it's not necessarily your true self and, um, so, but anyways, you realize you're gay in college and you just are like, Oh my God, you're going back through like your whole probably puberty and childhood and seeing how obvious it should have been.

Yeah. Like, why didn't I date a whole bunch of guys? Oh, I wasn't interested in being gay. You know, I had, um, a neighbor who lived across the street from me and he was gay. He was my special friend and I, I think of him as my, my childhood sweetheart because you know, kindergarten to graduation, like, he was like my buddy person.

Um, and now he Looking back, it's like, that is the definition of a beard. And us, like, dating, or like, all the people around us being like, Oh, this is so cute. Oh, he, I think in kindergarten, he got me a ring. You know, like, your parents get those magazines, um, those jewelry magazines, and he had gotten me, like, this little...

Red heart and a white heart, like together, and it's like, and he was like, I know you like, uh, hockey, and these are the colors of the devil, and my favorite team, and like this whole thing, and, um. You like talking. It's kind of a love story. It's really good. It's really good. I mean, all the sports. All the sports I played.

Why did I like sports? I was super competitive in athletic. Oh, I got to be around a lot of girls and, you know, the bus time and the friendship and the sleepovers and it was just fantastic and it made my entire world great. I would describe my childhood as pretty good. Growing up, I wouldn't say I had a special female friend.

Um, but I had a lot of friends and they were all athletes. And, um, I remember I kept this book, it was called my people book. And I would basically write all the things I admired about them. And me Oh, that's cool. I still have it too. I should have brought it. It's crushing. It's cru and it's like It's a crush.

They're so smart. They're so intelligent. I didn't think of it as a crush because I wasn't thinking of them in a sexual way. Yeah. But I had, um, just these women that girls at the time because we were young. But I just admired them so much. And when it was their birthday, I would go way overboard. You know, just so special to me in my life.

Yeah. It's okay. It's okay to cry, Celia. That's, that's, that's romance. That's crushing. That's, yeah. But, but that's always where, yeah, you're, you're sexually attracted to women, but then there's an emotional intimacy. There's an intellectual intimacy. There's, you know, all the values and just camaraderie and I just, I love it all.

They're fantastic. That was something that As I started to understand LGBTQ better, it's this, being gay isn't just being sexually attracted. Like, when I first came out of being Mormon, and, you know, how you have to, like, kind of unpack all the conditioning, and I just thought that being a lesbian was being sexually attracted to women.

It's being romantically interested in women. It's wanting to buy flowers or special gifts for a woman. It's wanting to have those long conversations and cuddles. Writing them poetry. Writing them poetry. Bringing them a CV that has all their favorite songs on it. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, I think that is something that's also not very well understood in, in Mormonism.

Yeah. Mm hmm. That the romance piece is. It's love. Yeah. It's love. Yeah. It's a whole life. It's not just a sexual perversion. No. And that's all we're taught is that it's this perversion. It's not that. It's love. It's coming from your heart. You want this person to love and you want them to love you back. So in college, when you, how, what was the, I don't know, final thing that you're like, Oh my God, I'm gay.

I was literally kissing a girl. This is the most fantastic thing ever. Let's keep doing this. But the crazy thing is like it's not like we just kissed one day like it was you know We're holding hands in the car. We're cuddling watching movies. You know, she's making me dinner There were so many things leading up to it and we're sleeping in the same bed, you know You know, she had a nightmare.

So she jumped in my bed and like those type of things. I Did not it did not click until we were actually kissing that I was like, oh because it With a close female friend, all those things I'm describing could just be a regular platonic girl friendship. Holding hands, snuggling, watching movies, like, that's all regular.

Women in general have that, so I guess like, it was not obvious to me. Because like, holding hands with your kids, it's not a sexual act. It's just a very clear meaning. She's just a very clear individual human assumption that everybody else is just kind of the same way as me. I'm only experiencing it through my eyes.

And then you realize. So your friend, your special friend, did she also know she was gay or was that like the kiss was when she realized as well? We never... Yeah, as far as her journey and um, even after our specialness of our friendship ended, it was never something that she wanted to continue, um, with other people, with other women, so I don't know.

At least not that you know. Yeah, not that I know, because we never talked about it, and for a very long time after that, I literally thought, I'm not gay, it's just her. I just fell in love with her, that was a special circumstance, that'll never happen again. Cause it's not like I'm actively, um, fantasizing about women, and when I think of my life, I'm not picturing it with a woman type of thing.

And so that's why it was pretty easy for me to go from that relationship with her, To marry the dude. Yeah, I didn't think like I'm lying to him and like I'm super gay But I'm gonna like marry him anyway and trick him and it wasn't anything like that. I literally just thought It was just her that was great and fantastic, but I'm gonna do this other thing.

Yeah, so you got married I did. Yeah. Got married and... Oh, but first, weren't you at BYU when this happened? I was at BYU Idaho. Okay, BYU Idaho. Yeah, and um, her and I, my special friend, we got caught a couple times. But first of all, it was... By your roommate, or...? Yeah, it was really difficult for us because, um, we're doing these things in my bedroom.

And then we're going to church and you have to take the sacrament and there was many times where the sacramentary is coming and she doesn't partake and passes to me and I don't partake and then who's on their other sides are all our roommates so they're like what the fuck is happening over there morning so watch who takes the sacrament they so you're not supposed to it's a personal thing but we are not we are both at the same time not taking the sacrament they're like police because that's you know it's It's disgraceful for what we're doing.

Like we, we both recognize what we're doing is wrong. Yeah. And very bad. And we feel so much shame about it. And now everyone else is feeling our shame, even though it's something that we're not being open about and whatnot. It's, it's just completely. They're just sitting there faceless together. Yeah. And there's suspicions and there's this, and there's trying to bust into our room type of the door locked.

Wow. It smells a certain way in our room, like, there's this, Wow. I mean, they obviously know, and, uh, yeah, one of my guests, either they unlock the door, which, those locks are total shit.

Interesting, and something that I did experience at BLU Idaho as well, Um, and that I think is encouraged by the honor, what's it called? Honor code policies. And that's this policing each other. It's like, yeah, you say you're going to turn and you're, if you and your friend are like, get to that point that you want to go through the repentance process or whatever, that's like your guys business, right?

Like when you're ready to talk about it, you're ready to talk about whatever you're going through, but they felt. Like, how is it gonna help you guys re Wow. How's it gonna help you guys? I didn't, so I didn't know this. That is awful. So I've been watching a lot of stuff about the Nazis, , , and the self-policing.

Okay, I see where this is going. Okay. I'm sorry. Connection. You didn't know who to trust because they would report who was hugging Jews or who was taking extra food because Yeah. Mm-hmm. and Wow. No, there was an, I wasn't, I was in an apartment complex and there was this one apartment that the girls would sit at the window at curfew time and watch to see who went through their door after curfew.

Wow. And they would stay up and watch the day before curfew. And I literally was like, maybe five minutes after curfew because I was just sitting in the parking lot talking to my fiance. And like, oh, it's one o'clock, I better go up. And like, I get up, you know, say goodbye. I get up there, five minutes late, they report me.

Every single time. Wow. And they just would sit there and stare through their blinds. And then

what are we teaching? What are we teaching by telling them to police? So, so rewind my, my, my, my very first, this is about the honor code and how I learned my lesson that you definitely have to report, and this is how it was drilled into me, my very first semester. I had random roommates, um, and they're from all over.

And the one wasn't necessarily going to school. And so she would do kind of crazy things because she wasn't necessarily bound by the agreement. She still kind of was because she was living in approved housing. And the other would have like this firefighter boyfriend come over all the time and spend the night and I was like Good for you.

High five I did. Experience was crazy. Um, and after the first semester, all of those roommates ended up transferring 'cause they were, after experiencing one semester. They're like, I'm going back to Arizona. Get I'm, I'm high. This is ridiculous. But I did not report, and other people watching noticed and made, um, made the report.

But then I got in trouble for not reporting, and I got put on academic, not academic, but probation. Like probation, yeah. Uh, and I got a lecture in talking to, and the very next semester I had to live with the RA. Wow. Whose name was Cammie. I just want to put that out there, that's what, that was her name.

And, uh, we don't talk anymore, but a lot of the other roommates that I had to live with, with the RA, I still do talk to and everything. But, but that's the type of... Like, I did not, I wasn't even involved in this girl's life. We actually hardly hung out outside the apartment doing fun things or anything like that.

It was not a close relationship at all. I was just going to school, working a full time job, just trying to take care of myself. First semester. Yeah. That 2, 000 miles away from home. Yep. And then it's like you're now being threatened with if one more thing happens, you're out of here type of thing. And so, so yes, it's absolutely part of the honor code to turn someone in at your own expense.

You have to turn them in. Or like, I didn't have guys in my room. Yep. Wow. I never had a guy in my room. Yeah, but it's funny because, you know, also seeing like, out east being Mormon and then coming to BYU, I know such a difference in what it means to be Mormon. And I think that's interesting because a lot of Mormons You know, I don't know what percentage exists outside the bubble, they're, they like, don't even know.

Yeah. They're like, I don't understand why all these ex girls are so angry, like, it was really chill and we like, love people and we're like, okay, it's different in Rexburg, yeah, it's different. Well, when I went to high school in Pennsylvania, that was pretty close to New Jersey, it was like 10 minutes from the border.

And I'm very used to the lunchroom conversations about, you know, their, their first time. And I know I talked to my friends about, you know, behind the, behind the building type of situations. We were just trying to find ways to have sex and Selfies, I know. Oh, yeah, so so strange. So, okay, so BYU Idaho, wow, even more intense than Provo and to have like fallen in love.

It's definitely stricter than Provo, yeah. And I could see why that might add a layer of shame to this idea of being lesbian because there was so much shame around what you and so much judgment. It weighs on you. Being policed. And for that to be like your first kind experience with those things that would really like set the tone for years.

Yeah, for sure. I mean when we got, so the roommate kind of told us um, you go tell the bishop where I will. Oh wow. So she didn't necessarily. She was trying to be nice about it. Yeah, like because, because like it's like wait on her that she now knows. And it, you know, she doesn't want to get in trouble, and she cares about our salvation.

Like, this was a very good friend. I'm still friends with today. This girl who turned us in, like, she's a beautiful person. And so that's kind of, you know, the past. No, I can see. And so you had to go talk to the bishop about it. With the context that that was fair of her. Because she could get kicked out too.

Yeah. And, you know, she was a star student type of a thing. A really nice. that was difficult to get into. And it was, but now looking back when we went to the Bishop, I now see that he was just some like doctor in Idaho Falls that they would send up. Like, all, all the wealthy, um, guys in Idaho Falls get selected to be bishops up in BYU Idaho.

I can't even remember the date. Yeah, my bishop owned the Kelly Canyon Ski Resort at BYU Idaho, so yeah. Yeah, so if you're a prominent, it's kind of like an honorary position where you go up and have fun with these college students and then they interact with the super successful and it. You kind of like mentor the kids and a lot of times they have like second homes up in Island Park and all these other things and they do these, you know, great events and it's really great for the students to kind of have that type of mentorship, but Dude is not to counsel you about being gay.

I remember he was just, he's asking all these detailed questions and he's like, he's like, well, is that, is that even sex? If there's no penis involved, like, I don't even like, she's asking you. Yeah.

He's like, there might be some gray area here because of it. If it's not PMD then. What? How Does that even count? And now looking back, I'm just like, I feel so bad for these two wives, because it's like, they don't know anything about the female body, right? Based on, based on the questions that he's asking, but the recommendation was.

Uh, separate your beds.

It was really convenient to push them together. It was like we're, we're sleeping in each other's beds anyways, so like just push it together. So they're like, okay, separate the beds. Um, and then we talk about, um, me going on a mission, kind of like getting away from my doll. We talk about, um, her, she was really pissed.

That I had brought this up with the bishop during the same conversation, but it was a great deflector. You know, we talk about all the ways that it masks. Anyway, I'm just like, she has a lot of childhood trauma from her dad being a bishop. And a lot of abuse situations that she reported to her dad, who was the bishop, who did nothing.

Mm hmm. And so now it's a church problem mixed in with this sexual problem. Yeah, oh yes. And it perpetuates this. It's like the trauma. And it's not our fault that we're doing this. And um, it perpetuated the already assumption of lobbyism abuse. And that led to us being gay or whatever. And so, um, that's something she did not want to be dealing with right then.

And it kind of pushed her to do it. It made her get counseling and therapy and whatnot, which, which was good. I mean, it was good that it came out, but it's not, it was not her choice. Yeah, I could see why that would piss her off. Yeah, in the long run it was really good because the whole family had to deal with it.

And then through it and talking about it, you know, we found out that it also happened to a sister. And, um, but then they had the, we can talk about this now, we can, you know, she's still very close with her family and whatnot, who really wrapped their arms around her as best they could, type of thing, but, um, and, and she wound up not getting in trouble.

Cause it's like, oh, we're not going to punish this girl who, you know, might've had some abuse that's unaddressed. Because of church type, um, situations and... Well, and just, um, another, um, example of how that assumption is just so false that sexual trauma leads to being gay. I mean, Cam has talked about having sexual trauma.

Yeah. Yeah. Statistically, it's like one in four women. So, I mean... Yeah, and they're not all gay. No. Yeah. No. It's, it's very false. Okay, and then you decide to get married. Okay, so I don't just decide to get married. That baggage, you go on a mission. I go on a mission. And then you get married. Hmm? No? Um. Well, I was still very much in love with this girl, and I go to the show, and she writes me every single day.

Um, and her sister sends me, okay, her sister sends me care packages. Uh, I think her family writes me more than every single person in my family combined. But then, uh, my companion says, like, you're getting a lot of letters from, like, this one person, like, I think it's distracting. Maybe we should go on a mail fast.

Like, don't, so she like collects my mail and like doesn't let me have it, which was like devastating. And like the trauma of what a mission is, in general, is a whole, is a whole story. So one day about three or so months into it, maybe four, um, I, you know, get the letter and sometimes she'll write every day and then send the letter once a week.

So it really was not like an overwhelming, it was not ridiculous, it's just that it was kind of like a journal where she's, um, you know, when she was a night nurse at a psych facility. And so she's basically like 24 hours watching this person and you get like hour long sits watching this person sleep. to keep them alive, type of thing, and so she is, you know, writing it in her heads, you know.

And, um, so the letters come in, and then all of a sudden, uh, one week I don't get a letter, and I'm like, what the hell? The next letter that comes, she says that she's engaged to this other dude. And I was like, nope. Three days later I was home. You left your mission early? Yeah. How early was that? I was only out for like four months.

Oh wow. So it was not long. And I was devastated. And um, I immediately came home. And um, that was extremely traumatic. But yeah, within three days. I would hop the flight back out to Idaho to see her, became her roommate again, um, she ended up canceling that engagement and um, then we kind of, but we still both recognized that like, we can't be Mormon and gay, like, there's no possible way, and there's all these things that like we wanted to do, like.

Have children and you can't have like your bi, like at the time you can't have biological children. Well, and now you can like, it's just like we probably could then It was just really expensive. But like, I don't know, like there's a lot of things that you assume, well, you didn't know. Yeah. I wasn't researching, I wasn't like, I wasn't like literally planning our lives.

I, you know, but there's all these things where we just couldn't do it. Yeah. And so we kind of concoct this plan. It seemed like a legitimate plan at the time, where, look, we just won't be sexual, but we can still, like, live close together, and our kids can grow up together, and we can still go on family vacations together, and all we have to do is date guys and marry guys that are friends.

And then we're friends and it's just like this great situation where we get all the intimacy and all the friendship over a long period of time. And so I make my selection first and I pick, I pick Ray, you know, he's wonderful. And she, six months later, marries his best friend. Wow. And um, it was good for a very short amount of time.

And um, I think six months into their marriage, they divorced. And it was really messy and my husband ended up, because we got her in the divorce, because Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to let her go. Right. And, um, and so he lost his very best friend and they never spoke again and it was extremely hard and traumatic.

And even like years later, he would have like a dream about like what he's doing and maybe that they'd be friends again and yeah, that dude, you know, they split and he kind of took off. And they're even in a similar. Um, work, uh, situation and they still like would have so much in common, but, um, so all of this could have been avoided if you were just allowed to love who you wanted to love.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's not, it's not just like traumatic for me as an individual, like it, it spread out to everyone that I'm touching because of. The rules and the situation and all the things. Because people aren't being authentic and yeah, it's ripples. But her marriage lasted 6 months and mine lasted almost 15 years.

Yeah, you were dedicated, huh?

Or was it more than that? Well, I mean, I loved him. Yeah.

But it wasn't romantic love for you? It was like best friend love? I mean, it was both. Like,

so, um, was it not being gay that made the marriage not work then? I mean, we had sexual problems, but, um, it wasn't necessarily my gayness. But, um, did your, um, husband know this about you? No, I ended up telling him about the 10 year mark and, uh, he laughed and didn't necessarily believe me. Oh. Cause I was like, I was like, oh, remember my best friend in college, my maid of honor?

Like, that was, that was a little bit more, um, than what it seemed. And, uh, he, I, I don't know, he, he laughed pretty hard about it and just didn't believe me. Especially because, um, he definitely had like this story in his head that like, and, and I definitely played into what he needed this story to be in order to marry him.

And that was that he saved me. I am a poor girl from the East Coast and, um, I was extremely lucky to have him. Which, you know, was true on a level, but then if, if I'm dating a girl who, like, graduated with honors from a program he couldn't get into, and, and that type of thing, and then directly after telling him, he was like, well, maybe we should make sure that you're feeling, let's not make any rash decisions here, how about I allow you to explore the feelings that you're having with this, you know, random girl at the gym?

type of thing. Um, and she was like a bikini fitness model and then there was like, you know, this whole strew of girls who are like extremely pretty, really smart, uh, and just beautiful people that he wouldn't even attempt to talk to. It kind of like destroyed this story that we had been telling ourselves that, you know, I, I was lucky to have him and it was like he was this knight in shining armor.

And he's a great provider and it's just all of a sudden he was like, well, you guys don't really need me exactly type of thing. And yeah, like what it was bringing to the relationship really, the illusion is starting to fade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have to space. Actually what's really happening? Yeah. That's versus the story we're telling ourselves, um, type of thing.

But I mean, he was amazing to allow me that exploration and that time space. I say not a lot of men that will do that. Um, I know from my own experience it was really hard. Yeah. I was just owned and controlled and I could never. Talk about, um, if there was anything in my sexuality that may be expressed. So it's cool that he was able to Yeah.

Because it was strictly for you. Mm-hmm. , well, I mean, there was perks for him. Okay. There was perks for, and there's definitely, we definitely performed a lot of, you know, things for him. , we took good care of him. But the emotional, the emotional piece, it really, yeah. It was hard on him because I know my ex wanted a similar situation where he wanted like a wife that was bringing in one.

Mm-hmm. , but it was, he didn't want in, in theory. It's so fantastic. He didn't walk. You see yourself as the centerpiece. Exactly. Mm-hmm. , it revolves around you and in the room . Yeah. So special. It's fantastic. Yeah. That's what I'm bringing to the table. To table. Oh wait. They dont want that. It's like, oh yeah, you shouldn't have to do something like that.

Yeah, but my ex, he was always threatened by the emotional intimacy or friendship that might come out of that. So he would freak out if that started to happen. Yeah. While he was, you know, thrilled by the idea of like, Having a wife and then also having other women around, he didn't like the idea of me having a new best friend, right?

Or me having a new, like, person that I was sharing super personal stuff with. And maybe about him, too. Oh, well, women are always talking about dudes and so I don't even think that's like a hard thing because like my best, you know, when my best friend goes on a date, I hear all about it, all about it. And so, like, that's not so that I don't think that was threatening to him but but the first time that he experienced all of us together.

It was very obvious then of like, Oh, you're excited about this. Oh, you are participating in a way that you weren't with energy and finesse and like, let's explore this little thing. Oh, let's get this toy. Oh, let's do it. And it's just like, you can't ever, you were never like that with me type of thing. And then it became very obvious.

And it was a pretty quick deterioration after that. Even though it still took like three more years. Well, that's normal. That's normal. That is normal for straight people too. Right? Well, when you're committed in a relationship with someone for so long, and you have kids together, there's so many parts that you want, you want to try to keep it together for the kids too, or I wanted to lie about certain parts, but it's, it's when you finally just have to face the truth.

Well, we tried, we tried to go back and say, okay, well, let's, let's stop all this extracurricular and let's just do me and you, because like, I only did it when he... said it was okay. The second he was like, you know, I'm not, okay, cut them type of thing. Like, I mean, people call that like ethically, well, ethical nominations or something like that.

Um, and so we tried to go back and I did like a commitment of like two years where I'm like, okay, if I just tried really, really hard for these next two years and it gets better, then I'll stay. Yeah. I'll take a thing. But by. The year and a half. He was like, well, we could just be roommates like and it would be fine and we can keep yeah Cuz like yeah as the guy who like he made a commitment Mm hmm, and I'm here keeping that commitment.

We're trying together to Stay and we have this fantastic life Are happy. He makes a lot of money. No, I mean, I, I was happy, like I had him the best years of, but you need to do you to be happy. Yeah, right. A lot of people like you because maybe he won't be happy on, he's financially secure. He's a wonderful contributor and a good dad and it's, it's a good cushion.

Yeah. And so it's like, okay, this one little part. Yeah. You know, but then it turns out like, That's all I want in life. So, I'll live in a cardboard box. Sexuality brings in, it brings in also this sensuality. It brings in joy, creativity, vibrancy. I mean, that's where you get, like you said, you're getting excited.

And when you have like healthy sex. You feel alive, and that, and I don't think you realize how, not, like, you were like, Well, in Mormonism, growing up Mormon, they act like sex is not really that important. Yeah, yes. It's a temptation. It's like an earthly thing. It's a body thing. And, you know, it's, yeah, once you're in marriage, it can be a beautiful thing, but it's never the priority.

It's never part of what, how you choose a partner. It's never like, how attracted are you to him? That should be how you make your decision. Our sexual compatibility. Incompatibility was much deeper, but we had no idea, you know, and in the first six months it became obvious and I had the choice of that because I didn't have kids for, you know, years into the marriage.

I could have left as well. Yeah. Um, but, you know, you're, you're married and you, Mormonism. That's a very serious commitment in Mormonism. Yeah. And it's not like, oh, this one piece isn't there. You know, these other ten pieces all are. And sex isn't that important because you were raised Mormon. So that's kind of like secondary.

And I've had to shut it down for years. And so let's just shut it down again. If you both, if you both could have explored your sexual...

Um, and so I'm sure that you both kind of had that epiphany like, wow, we are not compatible at all. Yeah. It became pretty obvious when all the rest of the time we were just kind of muddling through it because you'd never had like explored your sexuality, you know, and that's what Christianity encourages that chasteness, that purity culture, that you get married before you do any of that.

And it's just awesome. It works. Yeah. It's almost smart of them to have you do that because. What you don't know. Well, so all of this is going on behind closed doors. Like, like, um, because you live in a Mormon neighborhood, right? Primarily LDS. And I'm guessing you're not talking about your friend's situation.

All of your neighbors, and so are they shocked when you get divorced? And is that when you come out is in conjunction with the divorce? How did you do that? Yeah, I came out kind of in conjunction. It definitely answers a lot of questions of, cause I think the first assumption and especially, you know, with my ex as we're, first of all, I, he went hunting.

And when he came back, I had papers ready for him. So basically we had the conversation and he was like. Look, it's not great. It's not coming back all my feelings for you But we can be roommates and we can make this work and we've got this life and we can keep going and the next day I went to the lawyer and I was like, okay, I don't want to yeah You want something more?

You're a romantic

And so he went hunting A week or whatever came back and um, the papers were ready for him and he signed them immediately and within 30 days it was finalized. Um, and all through that time we were still sleeping in the same bed, , cuddling and snuggling. Um, and I think it took about a month after it was finalized for him to actually move out and, and type of thing.

But I wasn't gonna pressure and I wasn't gonna pressure him to move out quickly or anything like that. But um, it took him a long time to tell his family as well. I remember going down for some holiday or just like Sunday dinner type of thing and playing cards with his moms and I knew that this was the last time.

Yeah. Yeah, it must have been, it must have been a lot knowing that this big change is happening. And that, and the way you know it too, to let him keep his family so you don't get to take them with you. Oh yeah, I lose everything. Yeah. So, you know that you're probably losing this family that's become your family.

You're like closer to his family than your own, right? Oh yeah, for sure. And then, there's gotta be weighing on you too. The fact that you live in a very LDS area. Mm hmm. And, are you assuming that you're also gonna like, lose friendships and neighbors? And, like, how did that play out? Yeah, I mean, not only that, but I thought my kids would also, you know, react to that.

Repercussions of having a gay parent. Because you came out to your kids first, I assume. Uh, I actually did not. You didn't? No. Um, they were still really young and just didn't quite understand. And while I came out at the same, publicly, at the same time that I announced my divorce, um, which was a couple months after it was finalized.

Um, they, they just, they were so young and it was such a hard transaction, uh, transition for them that How old were they when you got divorced, remember? Five, seven, and like ten. Yeah, that's pretty young. So did they even know what it meant to be gay?

I don't, I mean, they, basically, we have, uh, other people on the street. Who have, like, gay ankles and whatnot. And so, I'm sure it was an idea that was kind of floating around, but there's no interaction with gay people in... Idaho. You know, I, even though I naturally attracted a lot of women who were like, oh, I'm bi, oh, I'm gay, kind of thing.

So it's nice to have all these gay friends. It just happened. We all just kind of like, once you have eyes for it, you can just kind of see it. Um, very subtle ways of language to use, but, um, it's not necessarily something that was on their radar and with their entire world being. Um, ended with the divorce, it just wasn't the center focus.

Like, me talking with you guys about being gay, it's, it's like the least, like, it's the least interesting thing about me. It is. Right. And it just has never played a prominent role in my life, and it, so it wasn't... The reason for the divorce, even though it was... I've been seeing too why it would be annoying.

It's like that this now becomes the biggest thing that everybody knows about me. When I'm really this like whole person. And I didn't necessarily end my marriage so that I could go run off with a woman type of thing. I wasn't leaving my marriage to go to anything. Like it was more of like a release for him and then for me to find myself.

Yeah. Um, and so that's kind of the journey that I focused on is myself and, um, my kids and the stability that they need. And so, so it really just hasn't been prominent and it wasn't, I mean, I now three years later, it's kind of been an idea that we very slowly worked into with them. Um, and it started in that saying things like, you know, because he, my ex is now remarried and, um, You know, in a very committed relationship, and that happened like within a year of the divorce type of thing.

So now it's been years, and so they're getting used to having an additional family, uh, parental person in their lives. And, um, So it started with saying things like, Oh, well, what if I dated a woman or like, or, you know, how would that feel to have three moms essentially because, and they would kind of say things like, well, I already have two moms.

Yeah. Why not? And, you know, let's say things like, well, dad's a great dad and we certainly don't. Need another dad. So, you know, it just, it kind of worked its way very slowly. Mm-hmm. into their lives, into their vocabulary, into their like realm of possibilities. Yeah. Yeah. And whatnot. So I, it wasn't a big announcement, it was just kind of mm-hmm.

like the, I don't know, I, I've stayed the same and they've adjusted really well. Even saying things like, You know, what, what if so and so, what if, what if the girl I end up with, um, has other kids, you know, how would you feel about that, and just kind of like, working it all in their minds. Um, and my kids say things like, or I'll say like, what if someone at school maybe made fun of you for, you know, having a gay parent and whatnot, or what if they said something and you would say stuff like, you know, it's really none of their business.

Yeah, I love that story. I think it feels that way. It should be respected. Our sexuality should be respected. Yeah, and that it's a private thing. But it's, there's almost something of like you coming out, that you're opening that door to everyone into that very private part of your life. Mm hmm. Which most people don't even have to talk about that with anybody.

But because you're now lesbian. And you even have a pride flag outside. Everybody's already automatically involved in that part of your life. Yeah, and it's the thing that probably stands out the most to them. All the houses on the street kind of look the same, and so it's very, uh, abrupt. Before I started buying the Pride flag, there wasn't any others in the neighborhood flying it, and now there's like six or seven.

That's awesome! And I'm still the only one in my neighborhood. That's good for you. And that's not that good for places. Thank you so much. I bought ten because I, I literally bought ten because I didn't want to be disappointed if someone came and saw that I had an HOA. I was like, I could be reported type of thing.

So I had to make sure it was okay with my HOA. And if other people are flying Trump flags, which they are, um, it's a political flag. And so it's allowed. And mine is technically a political flag. I love that. And nobody has said anything about, negative about the flag. So your neighbors have been supportive.

Did you have to like, verbally come out to your neighbors? No, I mean, I, or just, I did a Facebook page. Okay. And, uh, nobody for Facebook. I know , it does take care of things like that. We Facebook and, and I'm a well-liked individual. I, and they knew me before and I, nothing has really changed and so I think they just have respect for me and that respect carried over.

Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. I mean, I feel like my ward and neighborhood, this is a ward I've never attended. When we moved into this house, we, we built the house and I never attended that ward. That was the time when I absolutely was cut off, that I stopped attending church. And so these are people who never experienced me.

That work, was that before you realized you were a lesbian or after, like leaving the church? Oh, I left like years before. You left years before. And then it was like. Yeah, it becomes, well, if this is all made up and not real, and I'm checking all these boxes. Or nothing. Who would I be? And what would I want to do if I didn't have to check all those classes?

And so it kind of gave me the space to just wonder who I am, because there was years in between. Hold yourself back. That was just a one off experience in college, right? It was just her, just a special circumstance. So it's after you left Morganism that you started thinking about It, was it just... And I definitely made the assumption that I can't have

interaction with someone who I feel have this great amazing intimacy with, and that turns out to not be true. So just, you know, I made a lot of assumptions and it's hard because the indoctrinations. Yeah. I was going to say, you didn't have the exposure or education really about. What being gay can look like.

And so, now you are an openly gay woman in a very Mormon community. Mm hmm. And so far, it seems to be supportive. Not, not a single backlash of anything negative has been said to me or done passive aggressively to me. My kids are still invited to all the things. Um, parties, sleepovers, all the things. I was worried because I coach a basketball team.

And I was worried that if they want to book me, maybe they don't want me as a mentor example to their young, impressionable girls. And of course, that's not how it works. There's no reason to book me. But they do! A lot of Christians believe that you can brainwash someone into being gay. I mean, that's why they're banning books.

But even just seeing me as a regular, normal, everyday person who's kind and loving. And happens to be gay. If I'm the only exposure to a gay person, then they're going to have a very favorable view of what it means to be a gay person, so I could see... I mean,

for a good amount of where we live. But, I mean, it's been three, three years now and we've gone season season and they keep coming back and it's just a wonderful And they come over to your house too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The kids, there's, there's no like, Oh, stay away from that person or anything like that. And, since I have been running the Crepe Trailer, I employ a couple of the teenage kids in the neighborhood.

And so, teenagers, when they get together, in a very safe, open environment, can say anything that they want. It would come out if their parents had these news about so and so and other gay news. Kids aren't that spoozy. Yeah. No, they're not. And they're only repeating what they hear at home. And my interactions with the kids in the neighborhood have been fantastic, and their parents are lovely, wonderful people who go online and defend, um, gay people, even gay people staying in the church.

Gay people leaving the church and they post articles and say, read this book about, um, you know, such and such's experience with being gay and in the church and trying to navigate, like, making a safe space for people to stay. Like, the people in my neighborhood are, are well educated. It's a nicer middle class neighborhood and they're just loving and accepting and fantastic people.

Um, So obviously the, uh, I don't know, church policies or doctrine around being gay is not very friendly to LGBTQ. And, um, there's... A lot of, you know, suicide and just things like that among l d s youth that struggle with, you know, I don't even like saying struggle with same gender attraction, whatever you wanna call it.

Well, because they're struggl, they're struggling with belonging and fitting in. Yes. Yeah. They're struggling with not having a mentor or an elder to give them the guidance and to say, this is temporary. You're gonna graduate soon. You can go to college and be whoever you want. There's a whole world out there.

Give it a year. You know, like, maybe don't use, you know, the pronouns if you think you're gonna not be in a good situation. Well, because my, so my brother's gay. He grew up, well, he went through high school in my Salt Lake area. And he purposefully didn't come out. Till he was 18, because, and he's correct, he would have been sent to some kind of Like camp or something.

Therapy, whatever they call it, um, like gender therapy, I think. Um, which is crazy that they still have people who do this for the Mormon church because it's so damaging psychologically. Um, and he ended up spending a lot of time at a friend's house and his dad had this sort of halfway house for gay youth in the area.

I'm emotional because they don't have safe place. No, they don't. Yeah. And a lot of times they're homeless. Yeah. Um, so it's really, really beautiful to see this happening. Yeah. In Idaho. Mm hmm. In a Mormon community. And I'm wondering, do you think, obviously the doctrine hasn't changed, but do you feel like the lowly, everyday, normal Mormon person is starting to change their views?

I think so. I think so. Uh, and I can especially feel it from them if there's a couple of families who suspect it. Mm hmm. You know, that maybe their daughter, um, is, is bisexual and whatnot and they kind of go over the top in how nice they are to me and it's like I get to feel their love vicariously um, and that it kind of sets the example that like, Hey, when you're ready to come out to us, like you're going to be loved and accepted type of thing because it's a little bit easier for you.

To say, look over there, we, we love that person, and then when it's happening in your own house, and it's your own kid, you have all these expectations, even if you're not mentally sane. It can be different. It's different, and I can see, I can see the tide changing in how they treat other people, and I can see a little bit more acceptance.

So, you're almost being this example, this mentor, especially in like, your community, or what it is to be a normal person and be a lesbian, and it's not bad, it's not dark, it's not evil. So, here you're being this example, and maybe if this is starting to happen in more communities, Just the regular Mormons, the LDS community, can start standing up to the hierarchy, I guess you can say.

The elders who keep persecuting and trying to push that. It's not okay to be a gay, but actually it really is. To be living the lifestyle, living the lifestyle, living the lifestyle is a, it's not just okay. It's beautiful. Yeah, it is. Because I just like you. I had, you know, all this, like all of us, this indoctrination that, Oh, that's really sad for people.

They're never going to have like a fulfilled, happy family. They can't have kids. They are going to go through one relationship after another because it's just this perversion that's sort of like pedophilia in the same category. Right. And so I remember, you know, I, um, was not LDS anymore, not active when my brother came out, but I still had that feeling of like, Oh, that's.

That's kind of a sad thing. He's never going to have like a family. Is is kind of was this assumption for me, but I think it took about six months of deconstructing and then I was just like, no, that's not true. He's gonna be fine. . Yeah. I mean, aside from the fact that my family's very Mormon, he's gonna be fine

And so it's beautiful that you're able to like counteract that indoctrination just by existing Yeah. Where you exist, like just being you. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely look at it like I'm creating the space for a fulfilling relationship. in that I'm already accepted in the community and I don't have to fight for equality or acceptance or to be seen.

They, they just are so kind and loving to me. Well, you kind of put in the door already, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, they never experienced me as an active Mormon who was contributing because like all other places I lived, it's like, Oh, let's put you in the young women's program in a prominent position type of thing.

And so they never got to experience All the effort that I put into a calling into a community in a church setting and so to Kind of like, uh, almost like transactional, where like, if I work hard enough, people will appreciate that and then love me. I didn't have to do anything, and they just are kind and loving towards me and still invite me out to everything and all the activities, and so they're healing you too.

Yeah, it's like we're all doing it together. I think, I think there's definitely an embarrassment, um, on, on their end with what the church is doing and the policies, like they're embarrassed for the church type of thing. I think they wish that I could just go to church and be accepted. But they understand it would never work.

Yeah. Mm hmm. But if enough people just... Accept it, and then just don't excommunicate me, because I'm still a member. Yeah. I've never experienced any discipline on that level, especially because when I got disciplined I was uh, I had not gone through the temple yet And not gone on the mission and all of that.

Yeah, um, so I've not experienced any Disciplinary counseling, where you kind of get sent in to talk to everyone, so Which already must feel so heavy and so shameful if you have to go in and talk to a group of people about your sexuality like that and then be excommunicated from a community. So, I'm glad you never had to actually go through that.

I mean, um, I'm trying to think. I was out the other day doing yard work. And, uh, it was early in the morning, so I was, uh, bra, no shirt, doing my thing and one of the ladies, you know, from around the corner drove by and like, did a little honk and like, hey pretty lady, and then she said like, you know, be careful, this is, uh, Is it there are other women here that might see you trying to think it was really, it was really beautiful to have the acknowledgement and to reverse the roles of like, I'm not doing anything for the male gaze.

So, it was beautiful and it was before that she felt comfortable enough to. Yeah, call me in a funny, cute way. Um, that just makes me feel seen. Like, you know, thank you for in this very small way, acknowledging my sexuality in a positive way. And it's just a hundred examples like that. It's not like they're pretending it doesn't exist.

Like it's the elephant in the room and we just won't talk about it. Like you're acknowledging that you are this gay and they love you. And they'll say stuff like, who are you dating now? How's your person, not making any assumptions, whatever, you know, I could go back to dating guys too, who knows, that's not going to happen, but right out of the possibility, you know, it's a beautiful way to, to ask while still acknowledging and not assuming a sexuality thing.

That's exciting. It's, it's beautiful. I'm really happy for you. So you have that you have a safe place. Yeah. You have a really good place. And I do feel like I'm creating that safe space for other people to, it's like a path if I Yeah. Blaze the trail, then a trail exists. People, uh, to be who they're Yeah.

And be loved for that. Yeah. And see that it's safe. Yeah. Yeah. I have, um, my flag up. I live in Rexburg, which I feel like I, I know is worse. that I know falls when it comes to being very, um, like, cloistered, you know, and closed minded. But I still have had several people come to my door and just, the first thing they say is, I love your flag.

I mean, they're not brave enough to fly their own flag, but you know, I don't go to church, so I don't have to deal with the questions. So I think there is this, um, undertone that people are starting to, I don't know that you can stand up to the church because you'll just get excommunicated, but you can stand in yourself.

Mm hmm. Yeah. That's something. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty big. I think on Halloween, I had a gal, you know, all the parents and kids are coming by. And so this was a neighbor I had not previously known or met. And she stopped by and was just like, Hey, I love your flag. And you know, I have a trans daughter and we just moved into the neighborhood, two streets over.

And she said that they drove by and that, and it's definitely a worrying concern when you're moving into I going to be accepted? Is my child going to be bullied? Type of thing. And she said it was definitely a deciding factor, you know, you're, all these houses, which one are we going to pick? You know, there's some pride flags out in this neighborhood, like this is safe, we can live here.

So. That's awesome. I love that. Thanks for setting the tone. Yeah. Is there anything before we finish that you would like to say? Because I'm guessing at least. A few people who might still be in their closet or thinking about coming out or maybe are LGBTQ youth. Like, is there any last thing you'd like to say?

Um, I think I would, I would just say that there's a lot of fears, there's a lot of anxieties, there's a lot of questions to work through. Um, but just be yourself and keep going and everything will unfold and work its way out and. It can be better and more beautiful than white. You imagine or what you're currently experiencing yourself, just be yourself and then you find, and you find these wonderful people who will be your ally.

Yeah. We like, we'll, love, there's, there's community, there's people that you haven't met yet, but. People. Well, it's like you said, when you were being inauthentic, there was so much pain that was rippling to affect more than just you. Like you thought you could almost just sacrifice yourself. Yes, I'll keep it in and then it'll just be me.

That suffers. But it actually causes, it's, its everything, everyone. And then it's just the reverse of that is when you're yourself and you contribute who you are in a beautiful way, it, it ripple out. Mm-hmm. . So, and there might be people that you lose. Like, your ex's family, that you have to let them go, but then you find new family.

Right here. We love you. See you then. And, you know, it slowly comes back with, uh, with his family. I think there's still a lot of love and respect. Yeah. And, you know, there's still communication. So it's, and wishing well and liking a post and things universally better than you thought it would be. Yeah, for sure.

Like the story you had in your head about what coming out would look like. Mm-hmm. versus how it actually put out. I really rolled the dice on that's, I know that's not everybody's. I was thinking experience, but yeah. It's not everybody's story, but yeah. But I feel like, and I know for me 'cause. I mean, I'm going through a big shift in my life with the divorce and leaving the church and everything.

I didn't lose my community, but it created a vacuum where I knew I attracted a new, more supportive, authentic community. And so sometimes it is a little, there is a rough patch, but it does get better. Well, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Sylvia. Thanks for being so brave and sharing this part of yourself.

Yeah, well, I mean, you guys are the brave ones and you've been with us all the time. It's nice to have this space to be open, you know, with you guys. It's not something I can do all the time with individual people. So, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you for joining us today at The Middle Path.

You can find out more about Kat and janna@thewildlists.com and facebook.com/the wild Lists.